掲示板 Forums - How long does it take to reach fluency?
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Top > 日本語を勉強しましょう / Let's study Japanese! > Anything About Japanese
How long (on average) does it take to reach moderate fluency? My estimate is a year or two , with hard work.
Unfortunately, "fluency" is a nebulous term, which is hard to define.
According to coto academy
Hours studying to pass each JLPT level
JLPT N5 -> 462
JLPT N4 -> 787
JLPT N3 -> 1325
JLPT N2 -> 2200
JLPT N1 -> 3900
Of course, actual results vary widely.
Many say these figures underestimate the actual time required.
So, if you study like it is a full time job, you'd study 8 hours/day * 5 days a week * 50 weeks a year = 2000 h/year
So, theoretically (if those estimates were correct), if you studied like it was a full time job, in 2 years, you could pass JLPT N1.
Some would consider that to be moderately fluent. Others would not.
As the above answer clarifies, without defining what fluency means, the answer 'on average' is 2-3 years. 'On avarage' = informal communication-level fluency to read, understand and respond. It also depends on how much effort is put to consume media and lookup/verify.
On the other hand, if you want to be able to do formal/business level communications, there is more effort involved and consequently a longer duration (3-5 years). Note that it might feel a lot, but understand that 5 years is nothing compared to 12-15 years of formal English or Japanese education that students undergo for mastery.
it also depends on how much you are able to immerse into the language. That includes speaking. If you are surrounded exclusively by japanese speaking people you can reach fluency quicker. If you are only studying by yourself, I doubt that it it possible to reach fluency no matter how much you "study".
I'm not sure if the figures are even realistic myself. I find that even if you manage to plug in all the hours full time, you actually don't, because you end up losing efficiency and spending more time just resting and getting your wits back together or otherwise losing out on study efficiency from not being at your best (spending more time meandering, not getting it, making frequent mistakes you otherwise wouldn't). So I think they exist as a piece of theory only.
I don't feel that fluency means anything that can be defined in such a manner that talking about it in numbers is *ever* realistic. This is a view I've formed running renshuu for 20 years as well as being a language teacher for almost 15.
As several people have noticed, fluency itself is almost impossible to define, as it means different things to different people. I think these "it takes this many hours to reach this level" charts are almost entirely useless.
Even for something as relatively "simple" as passing the N5, you have a HUGE range of things that could be defined as such. (putting aside the fact that passing the JLPT is hardly correlated with fluency for most people because it does not test any form of production.) There is a roughly 20-30% range in accuracy that defines "passing". On top of that, because it's a test without any written form, there are ways of answering some questions by "beating" the test, not by actually having mastery over the materials. (strategies for eliminating multiple choice answers, etc.).
Then, there is an often overlooked but critical element of fluency = speed of thought and processing. One can "know" any amount of language, but if it can not be processed or produced in a certain amount of time (and this time changes depending on the form of the language: spoken, written, internet, etc.), then the value of that knowledge is greatly reduced.
Additionally, an "hour" doesn't really mean much because we cannot really define it well across people or groups of people. An hour of "studying" depends on the following things (among 1,000 other things)
1. Stress levels
2. Motivation
3. Environment (visual, temperature, noise, etc.)
4. Sleep levels
5. General health
6. What you did just before it, what you have to do next
7. Emotions
8. How much of this "studying" took place earlier in the day, week, month
9. Studying style
10. Distractions
Just to name a few.
We can ignore fluency, and choose an easier topic: "learning" the hiragana alphabet. I see some people on renshuu who feel they've mastered it in 2 days, and others who take months. That's the amount of range created by those factors above.
This post might sound somewhat gloomy, but it's not. What I hope to convey is that I feel those numbers given out by people and website are more dangerous than not, because they can make you think that you're a failure because you don't match up to what others say is "normal". There *is no* normal.
So I tend to suggest that only you have the current set of variables in your life that are going to control how your learning progresses, so there is only one person you can really compare yourself to.
We can ignore fluency, and choose an easier topic: "learning" the hiragana alphabet. I see some people on renshuu who feel they've mastered it in 2 days, and others who take months. That's the amount of range created by those factors above.
For me in my teens I was never able to learn hiragana even in 2 months of on and off practice. For me as a young adult I knocked it out in 1 week of constant effort (I was highly motivated at the time). Katakana only took me about half a week because it's functionally the same thing but with different glyphs and some direct cross-over so my brain had already done most of the work required back when learning hiragana. That was just to know all of it, my reading speed was still a lot slower than my English reading speed and I would occasionally still make reading mistakes (Usually misreading サ as セ) but the constant use of these symbols in my studies has increased my reading speed and lowered misreadings by a great amount at a gradual rate. I think there's definitely a difference between knowledge and competence in a given subject, tests and exams are often biased towards the former plus "test-taking skills".
I just started with Japanese but I have some XP with several foreign languages.
Answer: It depends. I know this is an annoying answer, but hear me out. It depends:
Renshuu, is a wonderful tool. It is very well thought out and very complete. But it is just a tool. You cannot learn mechanics, swordmanship, or any craft by reading a book. It helps. But at some point you need practice.
Someone with even just a few hundred well chosen words of vocabulary and basic grammar will fare better after being sent one or two month in full immersion than someone learning all N1-N5 levels of renshuu inside out and never talking to a native.
Renshuu gives you an easy way to quickly absorb vocabulary, work on listening sills, learn alphabet, ... so practice is easier and more fruitful. Activation is faster. But ultimately as we say in my mother tongue, "c'est en forgeant qu'on devient forgeron"
Three to four months sounds about right for full immersion under ideal circumstances, but most people won’t do that well with Japanese just because of the additional handicap of the written language. Renshuu’s great for practicing that aspect, which you can’t get from conversation.
Fluency and native level are words that should be erase from the vocabulary of language learners.
What people mean by that is being more or less confortable in every conversation, right?
But the only answer to that is all your life (and more). Because even native continue to learn new words all their life and are not confortable with every conversation. The most obvious ones are technical conversion or slangy one. But it can happen for every conversation to some degree. Simply because of the sheer number of words that you should know for every subject (but won't "like" a native).
I can take a few example for English and Japanese (I'm french). I studied math, informatic and biology when I was at the university. And because of that, I had to read a lot of scientific research paper. Now, I'm able to easily read a lot of them on various subjects (not limited to my initial studies). I even studied a bit of philosophy of science and I'm able to have decent conversation about that. And when I talk about that, even most native may not be able to follow me. At the same time, I'm not a reddit user and because of that, I'm often not able to follow some online conversation (because of slang, reference, etc). Also, I'm not living in a english country and I'm not really into small talk. Because of that, I forgot a lot of so-called "common words" and am not confortable "again" when I need to talk about my every day life. I'm still able to do it of course and when I say that I'm not confortable, it will probably not as bad as you may imagine but still. I can be nerdy on the subject that I like and for the other subjects, well I don't care to be honest. I will also continue to forgot basic words since I don't live in a english country but I don't mind (if I forget some word it just mean that there are not useful/common enoughy for me in my current environment).
As for Japanese, it's the same. I can have some basic conversation on advanced topic such as mathematic or philosphy (because I studied those and have a japanese friend that study math as well as another that like philosophy), I can have slangy generel conversation (because I have online friends and watch youtube everyday) or slangy video game conversation (because I like video game and watch youtube), etc. I'm also able to understand a lot of those because I have more and more reference about those (which are also very important and you will only get them from immersion, not from your studies). I can even surprise some japanese with those. At the same time, I got told that I knew too many "advanced" words while I'm still unable to have a lot of "basic" conversation (which is really a obnoxious feeling :v). I also started to forgot some basic "common" words because I'm not expose to them at all since I don't live in japan. The only things that "maintain" those words right now are SRS system like renshuu or others. Which really feel like a waste of time and energy. If I was living in japan or if I was avanced enough to be exposed to those low frequency "common" word, it would be a different story. But I'm not and I learn more slang/technical term than common word right now from my immersion. And I don't even study them because some are common enough to be remember even without trying.
So, to sum up, I can have "advanced" conversation that even native will struggle with but also can't follow some basic conversation (which is silly but I'm perfectly fine with it). This is partially because I don't learn more "common" words anymore (or at least only spend some minimal effort to learn them) but also because I just forgot a lot of them because of the lack of exposure. And won't relearn them too. BUT for the few conversation or the few immersion that I have on those specific topic, I went from being able to understand only 10% to 90% in a year only! On those specific subject tho. And now it's helping me for more general conversation. Because I still did continue to learn the most general common/grammar/kanji throught those specific topic. I also still continue to learn some "common" word. But really, I spend like 10% of my "serious" study time to learn them (ie: the time I spend on renshuu or other app). It's like 5-10 mn every day (right, it's even under 5mn...). I also continue to study kanji because they really are a shortcut to learn more words.
Anyway, "general fluency" is really just a illusion. Even native have strenght and weakness on some subject. And most of the time you will have some awfully specific conversation. And that "moderate" fluency as well as so-called common word are useless for those. What you need is either "specific high fluency" on those subject or a more "general high fluency" (whatever that thing means) which will probably take ten years at least (and probably more, especially if you don't live in japan). Which is still short compared to a native. I don't want to be discouraging but it's better than spending 5 years on the JLPT until N1 and discover than you can't have basic conversation with japanese because you only focused on that damn thing (Yeah, I'm a JLPT アンチ). At the same time, being able to have decent conversation on some specific subject after a year or two feel really great. And it also help you a lot on more specific grammar/nuance/sence of words. Because once you know enought words for those topics, that's the only thing left. And after that, it's just snowball to other subject.
So, yeah, 1 year or 2 for some specific subject imo. 5 years is what I heard the most for N1 (~~to not being able to have basic conversation~~). Also if you don't plan to live in japan, remembering "common" words will be harder and harder later on.
10 years for "general fluency".
But just forget that and simply have fun on some subject that you like. Once you have entire conversation with japanese friends or watch some video entirely in japanese after one or two years, you will forget about it anyway.